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#1 2017-12-31 07:07:19

executive
Member
2017-08-16
191

Heif

I just wanted to bring up some news that would be of interest to all the photographers and webmasters our there.

There is a new image file format on the horizon called HEIF (actually it is the HEVC encoder that is more interesting). It is supposed to be more efficient at encoding, so you can store more detail in less disk space than JPEGs (which is around a quarter of a century old technology now). Apple are talking about 50% reduction in size. I hear that iPhones already use this format by default. I can confirm that the current MacOS supports it natively, and I think browser support will come soon. There is a royalty-free javascript implementation that might be used to render HEIF images in the browser here: https://github.com/nokiatech/heif

Since server space and bandwidth costs money, this format is something I would be interested in using to publish my photos. I think it would be great if Piwigo adopted this technology. Any thoughts?

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#2 2018-01-02 00:08:09

eliz82
Member
Romania
2016-04-27
235

Re: Heif

this look similar with BPG
https://bellard.org/bpg/lena.html , implementation of polyfill seems simple, the min.js version is 200kB and you can see in the example docs what role each JS have [Github] libbpg file html/index.html@L5-L7
Demo http://xooyoozoo.github.io/yolo-octo-bu … &bpg=m
Code https://github.com/mirrorer/libbpg

----------
but for HEIF i find the examples in using polyfill more complicated.
https://github.com/nokiatech/heif/tree/gh-pages
they are many JS files and no explanation which ones need to be loaded, why and how. the min.js version seems to be 770kB ... quite big compared with BPG.
-----------
unfortunately no browser support BPG or HEIF.
as demonstrated for WebP using a polyfill actually making webpage loading harder for the client then using a much bigger JPEG
https://davidwalsh.name/webp-images-performance -> https://mattshull.com/webptests.pdf

so until this kind of formats get native browser support i don't think it's a good idea to implement them.

Last edited by eliz82 (2018-01-04 13:29:18)

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#3 2018-01-02 03:53:38

Zentalquabula
Member
2014-05-10
65

Re: Heif

It is always a good idea to be forward compatible.

Before this year has ended, all major browsers and Adobe apps will support HEIC/HEIF, namely because it is the natural successor to antiquated JPEG. Things will move quickly once it gains momentum.

Imagemagick and ffmpeg are already in the works of supporting HEIF, and once such support is available, Piwigo should also support it. Codewise, it is no more than another extension and another flag to image processors.

I for one will certainly implement it as soon as possible by converting my entire gallery. These days browsers are self-updating, so support will be almost universal.

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#4 2018-01-04 02:44:22

executive
Member
2017-08-16
191

Re: Heif

Thanks for sharing. It sounds like pieces are falling into place.

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#5 2018-01-04 10:08:41

flop25
Piwigo Team
2006-07-06
6748

Re: Heif

Zentalquabula wrote:

Before this year has ended, all major browsers and Adobe apps will support HEIC/HEIF

well not really https://caniuse.com/#search=heif ...


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#6 2018-01-04 13:16:32

eliz82
Member
Romania
2016-04-27
235

Re: Heif

eliz82 wrote:

but for HEIF i find the examples in using polyfill more complicated.
https://github.com/nokiatech/heif/tree/gh-pages
they are many JS files and no explanation which ones need to be loaded, why and how. the min.js version seems to be 770kB ... quite big compared with BPG.

seems i have missed their wiki page: https://github.com/nokiatech/heif/wiki/ … ementation

P.S.
BPG is already supported by imagemagick https://www.imagemagick.org/script/form … #supported , and their polyfill is 3.5x smaller then HEIF polyfill. so if someone want to make a more efficient file format for Piwigo i think he can already do it.

flop25 wrote:

well not really https://caniuse.com/#search=heif ...

yeah, accessing that exact address was the first thing that i did after reading the original post. :)

he probably refer at the end of the year 2018 :)

... but i doubt it. after yesterday spending a few hours reading some history about finding a modern picture and video standard for the web, I doubt Chrome and Firefox will adopt this. they have a long history in not adopting Apple standards.

which is somehow annoying for us the users and developers ... look at this guys ... 30 years after the jpeg format release and they are not able to get along and create a more efficient open-source picture standard for the web, when technical solution are on the table years ago (example BPG)

not even Google is to be trusted, they released WebP as "open-standard" free to use, but with the note that if are sued by other company for patent claims (related to other things??) they will sue that company for WebP usage ... so a kind of blackmail. no wonder Mozilla and Microsoft didn't want to adopt WebP for their browsers.

Last edited by eliz82 (2018-01-04 15:18:43)

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#7 2018-01-04 19:02:46

Zentalquabula
Member
2014-05-10
65

Re: Heif

eliz82 wrote:

... but i doubt it. after yesterday spending a few hours reading some history about finding a modern picture and video standard for the web, I doubt Chrome and Firefox will adopt this. they have a long history in not adopting Apple standards.

Apple drove H264 implementation, which is now ubiqutous. Same thing will happen with H265 (which is what HEVC/HEIF is). It is the natural successor, and private initiatives like WebP/M will go the way of Ogg and others.

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#8 2018-01-04 22:04:40

executive
Member
2017-08-16
191

Re: Heif

eliz82 wrote:

I doubt Chrome and Firefox will adopt this. they have a long history in not adopting Apple standards.

After hours of reading, you concluded that HEIF is Apple's standard? I think you need to read more carefully.

Browser roadmaps aren't set in stone, are they?

By the sounds of it, BPG is dead.
Unlike HEIF, I don't think BPG and WebP were ISO compliant.

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#9 2018-01-05 10:19:45

teekay
Member
2013-06-12
348

Re: Heif

I guess a vital step is having support for it in ImageMagick:
[Github] ImageMagick issue #507

And of course in libgd:
[Github] libgd issue #395

When that happened, PHP supports HEIF, and so does Piwigo.

All that's left after that point is support for it in all major browsers.
I guess we can get back to this topic in 5+ years.

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#10 2018-01-05 11:01:11

flop25
Piwigo Team
2006-07-06
6748

Re: Heif

teekay wrote:

I guess a vital step is having support for it in ImageMagick:
[Github] ImageMagick issue #507

And of course in libgd:
[Github] libgd issue #395

When that happened, PHP supports HEIF, and so does Piwigo.

All that's left after that point is support for it in all major browsers.
I guess we can get back to this topic in 5+ years.

perfect summary


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#11 2018-01-05 16:11:43

eliz82
Member
Romania
2016-04-27
235

Re: Heif

executive wrote:

After hours of reading, you concluded that HEIF is Apple's standard? I think you need to read more carefully.
...
Browser roadmaps aren't set in stone, are they?

isn't HEIF a container that contain one or more HVEC encoded images (at least at he current implementation, like on the Apple devices)?

1) the container HEIF
is based on ISOBMFF that is based on Apple QuickTime MOV container format. But who cares about the container ... is not the container that gain 2x file size efficiency over JPEG.

2) the encoder - HVEC
http://www.mpegla.com/Lists/MPEG%20LA%2 … 9-29.pdf#2
Apple is the first company on that list.

so ... i don't know what i didn't read carefully.
---
true, nothing is set in stone. but Mozilla developers already stated opinion about implementing a picture format based on HVEC encoding: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.c … 111277#c13
thats why i'm a skeptic

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#12 2018-01-06 01:08:30

executive
Member
2017-08-16
191

Re: Heif

The foundation for your 'Apple' argument is weak. HEVC is a collaboration. Claiming it is Apple's is like saying AAC belongs to Dolby.

eliz82 wrote:

isn't HEIF a container that contain one or more HVEC encoded images

I think most people here understand that we are talking about the entire file format for the purposes of displaying on the web in this topic, no? But if you want to get technical about it: no, HEIF does not just define the container.

From wiki: "The HEIF specification also defines the means of storing High Efficiency Video Codec (HEVC)-encoded intra images". (among others)

The  HEIF container is compatible with ISOBMFF, which was developed by MPEG. ISOBMFF is based on Apple Quicktime. That is very different from saying HEIF is Apple's.

eliz82 wrote:

2) the encoder - HVEC
http://www.mpegla.com/Lists/MPEG%20LA%2 … 9-29.pdf#2
Apple is the first company on that list.

You are funny. So the word apple begins with an 'a', therefore it means the standard belongs to Apple? Take a look at all the HVEC patents in the MPEG-LA:
http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/HEV … c-att1.pdf
Apple's portion fits less than one page, out of a 91 page document.  Read carefully means beyond the first line/page.

I do share some of your skepticism. We have seen distribution media wars before where file formats fall by the wayside into obscurity, but I think HEIF will take off, and I'll tell you why.

Mobile devices will dominate the marketplace. Mobile devices have limited memory. Much effort is going into advancing computational photo/filmography. (HDR, 3D, AR/VR, depth mapping, stitching, non destructive editing, transparency, resolution enhancing and many other signal processing techniques) We need a way to store all that metadata, and JPEG is too tired for that. Much of HEVC infrastructure, both hardware and software, is already well in place. Intel, AMD, ARM, Qualcomm, NVidia and other  chips already have HEVC codecs. Windows 10 already has HEVC codecs. Samsung is an asset holder in HEVC. Both Android and iOS devices support it in hardware and software. Google photos supports HEIF images too.

When Apple endorsed AAC encoded audio with iTunes, it was pushed into the mainstream. It is now THE standard that everybody uses. I don't particularly like Apple's ethics, but they are notorious for pushing progress (for better or for worse).

That all being said, HEIF will certainly never completely replace JPEG, any more than MP3s have been replaced. They will coexist. Heck, maybe HEIF will be superseded by something even better, sooner than we think.

eliz82 wrote:

Mozilla developers already stated opinion about implementing a picture format based on HVEC encoding: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.c … 111277#c13

That statement is for BPG, and it's two years old. HEVC is free.
http://x265.org/hevc-advance-announces- … -software/

Last edited by executive (2018-01-06 01:11:20)

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#13 2018-01-06 14:43:20

eliz82
Member
Romania
2016-04-27
235

Re: Heif

executive wrote:

http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/HEVC/Documents/hevc-att1.pdf
Apple's portion fits less than one page, out of a 91 page document.

In that document I see the number of pattens, not the importance of them. And I don't see who sponsored the Hevc/Heif working group, or who pushed Heif as a Iso standard, or who organized conferences with presentation about Heif, or who where the first adopters of Hevc/Heif format.

executive wrote:

That statement is for BPG, and it's two years old. HEVC is free.
http://x265.org/hevc-advance-announces- … -software/

This guys are changing the license fee every year http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/ … 08230.aspx
I don't see in the press release where they guarantee that they will not reintroduce the fee in 5-20 years? But we will see, maybe they will gain open-source community trust by signing a written agreement for 30 years :), until the pattens expire.

P.S.  Don't waste to much energy convincing me about how standardized and free this format is. You will probably have the occasion to do that on the browser developers groups. You can start with GDlib that teekay posted ... the issue is open 5 months ago and the developers don't even bother to respond. I gave it a like, now we show them we are 5 on the planet that want HEIF support in php

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#14 2018-01-07 20:06:37

cryopad
Member
Grenoble, France
2015-11-01
53

Re: Heif

It is difficult to know when HEIV will be available on our Piwigo servers, for sure.
A good news is that the current iOS app is ready ;-)


Do you use Piwigo for iOS ?
Comments, suggestions ? Tell us on GitHub…
Not yet available in your language ? Help us translate it…

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#15 2018-01-11 09:44:31

executive
Member
2017-08-16
191

Re: Heif

ImageMagick now supports HEIF

[Github] ImageMagick issue #507

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